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Decoder options for Marklins

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8 years 2 months ago #17146 by seldredg
Decoder options for Marklins was created by seldredg
I've been searching for information on what DCC decoders and how to install for Marklin locomotives. Digitrak lists quite a few Marklin models, but none of the ones I'm interested in (8825, 88490, 8856, 8851). I'm pretty good finding information on the Internet, but I'm only getting bits and pieces. Can someone point me in the right direction.

Scott

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago #17147 by shamoo737
Replied by shamoo737 on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott, look for Velmo decoders.

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8 years 2 months ago #17148 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott.
I haven't seen anything on the models you've mentioned. You might want to search the European hobby sites, possibly in German. Also check the European DCC sites like velmo.de/html/english.html

Usually the older Marklin are fitted with a discrete decoder, requiring you to separate the motor power and do mechanical modifications like
www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?103675-DCC-decoder-in-M%E4rklin-Pacific-Mikado-steam

Hope this helps,

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17149 by seldredg
Replied by seldredg on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Thank you. I will pursue. I did read something that indicated you needed to insulate the frame from the power pickup. Sounded like things could get ugly. I've only done soldering on Z scale boards a few times.

Related question: Are simpler decoders used for switches? Using DCC for switches isn't necessary for what I'm doing, but dong one or two would be good as an education.

Velmo has boards for two of the locos I'm interested. Will get more details after I learn German.

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17150 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott,
Definitely! Check out the DS series of stationary decoders at Digitrax. BTW you might want to start using the term "turnout" instead of switch. "Switch" has so many so many electrical uses, that it can get confusing at times in posts.

Yeah, the most important thing with DCC is isolating the motor from the track power. You can fry a motor in Z really fast with DCC.

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago #17151 by seldredg
Replied by seldredg on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Thanks, and for comment on switch vs turnout. Been rail offline for a year or so. I actually discovered my problem today when I wanted to look for information on switches to use to control turnouts. I thought "switches for switches" and realized what I'd done. :)

"stationary decoders" That's the term I needed. My Z ignorance has soared in my absence. Be fun catching up.

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago #17152 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott,
I'll bet the "switches for switches" search drove the search engines crazy!

I've been using double pole, double throw momentary contact, center off toggle or rocker switches: one pole for turnout control and one for turnout indicators. Recently I've started using triple pole switches for the Rokuhan turnouts: two poles to reverse the power and one for indication.

Z scale has just exploded in the past couple of years with at least a dozen new car styles and locomotives. Locos run better than ever, particularly low speed performance and DCC has become cheap and easy. Although, unless you subscribe to Ztrack or frequently haunt sites like this, it's real easy to miss what's going on.

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago #17153 by shamoo737
Replied by shamoo737 on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Mark, you really need to start posting pictures. I have a hard time visualizing what you are saying.:D

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8 years 2 months ago #17154 by seldredg
Replied by seldredg on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
I may you ask questions on your switches a little later when I get that far, but right now I have one.

If you are not going to control switches via DCC, does it matter whether Rokuhan switches are set to power routing or not? Or are switch control and power routing two different questions?

it will be a while before I get a new layout built, but I'm setting up small loop with a siding and spur (?) so I can learn DCC, wiring, etc. and run, test, etc.

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago #17155 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott,

To me there are a lot of complications for power routing or not. The simple answer for DCC is non-routing. But if you want to do occupancy sense, or build for the day when trans ponding decoders are available in Z, you'll want to create isolated blocks and the power routing is a great way to do it.

I'm using them in the power routing configuration, and running feed drops for all three ends. If I ever want the non-routing mode, I just connect all the feeds together.

Shamoo,
Sorry, I spent too many years of engineering pre-multimedia. I have a couple of switches I can shot a picture of to post. I will warn you my camera skill aren't the greatest.

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago #17156 by seldredg
Replied by seldredg on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
So if I understand you correctly, power routing or not is an independent question from whether you want to throw the turnout with DCC and decoders or with and accessory power and switches.

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago #17157 by shamoo737
Replied by shamoo737 on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Power routing is not a dcc thing. It can happen on dc to. My understanding is the power is routed to where the frog is thrown. I use a frog juicer, so I don't have any practical experience with power routing.

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8 years 2 months ago #17158 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Scott,
Yes, the power routing in the turnout is independent of how you control the turnout. If you're running a DCC loco, its motor is powered from the track indirectly through its decoder. If you have a siding using power routing, when you switch the turnout away from the siding, the loco will just stop. In the non-routing mode, the loco would continue to operate on the siding. So in most cases in DCC, you make all the turnouts non-routing. Power routing is more of an advantage with DC.

But there are times, even in DCC you need to isolate a section of track for a reversing loop or the others I mentioned and the power routing is handy to have.

Shamoo,

Still working on the pictures.

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago #17159 by shamoo737
Replied by shamoo737 on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
Mark, I been thinking of ways to turn around the engine without using the hand of god method. I have a turntable, but I don't think that's a realistic way railroads do it unless they are in a big yard, so the Wye is the best solution. Do you have any suggestion on how to do it dcc.

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17160 by garthah
Replied by garthah on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins
power routing with DCC is not using the turnout to its best advantage and putting a power feed on all three entry points defeats the power routing feature of the turnout and will lead to shorts very quickly in your track work. Power routing is designed with the track feed at the entrance to the points, and power beyond the tunout is dependent on the position of the points, and when placing turnouts back to back you have to insulate between the frogs or you will have short under some conditions, To use power routing you need to read and understand the principles of block wiring using power routing turnouts in a DC world.

The idea of non power routing was a feature of early Z from Marklin because it simplified wiring as only one feed was need to run one train anywhere on your track layout. The power problem in DC is limited to less than 10 vdc and the current is limited that of the draw of the motors in you engine or engines you are running on the head end of your train. So seldom have enough power to burn stuff as quickly as you can in DCC, but it is still possible to smoke stuff.

regards Garth

cheerz Garth

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8 years 2 months ago #17161 by markm
Replied by markm on topic Re: Decoder options for Marklins

shamoo737 wrote: Mark, I been thinking of ways to turn around the engine without using the hand of god method. I have a turntable, but I don't think that's a realistic way railroads do it unless they are in a big yard, so the Wye is the best solution. Do you have any suggestion on how to do it dcc.


At least on the SP I'm aware of turntables at several locations in N. Cal with the only purpose of turning the engine around at the end of the line or at the end of helper service. So it's at least prototypical.

Electrically I think a wye as just a reversing loop. It seems to me that the frog juicers would work for DCC, one on each of the approach turnouts and possibly one on the wye. I'll have to brush up on my juicer documentation to be sure.

Mark
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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17162 by seldredg
Another question on decoders and turnouts. If you want to control a turnout with DCC, do you have to power the switching mechanism with DCC power? Or can you power the mechanism from a DC transformer’s accessory power, but control the action with a DCC controller like the PowerCab? I'm going to get a PowerCab, but also need to power turnouts and accessories.

And is Rokuhan turnout considered to be solenoid 'snap-switch" type turnout?

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago #17163 by markm
Scott,
The accessory power is routed through the stationary decoder so you can use whatever low voltage power source required by the accessory. No DCC power involved, DCC is just in the tracks.
Yes.

Shamoo,
I slept on your wye question (when I do all my best thinking) :-)

If you're interested, I think I have a DCC way to get the loco to negotiate the wye automatically.

Mark

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8 years 2 months ago #17164 by seldredg
Thanks, Mark. I know enough to get started now. Scott

ScottE
La Honda, CA

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8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17165 by garthah
The Rokuhan Turnout is not considered a snap turnout. Snap turnouts are characterized by a dual coil solenoid and 3 wire control,two button momentary contact control, using either AC or DC to energize the one of the two coils either attracting or repelling the magnetic core to throw the turnout points. The Rokuhan turnout is a single coil powered with reversing DC using two wire control low voltage low current. This is sometimes referred in some literature as the Kato two wire style of control. The standard control lever is a spring return to center off 2 pole 2 position switch, rather than dual push buttons of a snap type turnout. So only a brief pulse is used to throw the points in either case. While the normal spring return to center off does not stay in position when released to show turnout position the Rokuhan turnout control does.

A stationary decoder requires connection to the track power as the decoder has an address so it can be addressed and controlled by your same controller as you control your engine on the DCC layout. I suppose you could have two DCC systems one to control your stationary decoder(s) and one to control your train(s), but I have not seen that sort of usage in the field.

Here is instructions from a digitrax stationary decoder, and is just one of many available. it is not an endorsement of the product as I have not used it with Rokuhan turnouts so do not know what the voltage out to the coil is, but I suspect 12 VDC, Rokuhan only needs reversing 6 VDC.



DS51K1 Installation
1. Turn off track power.
2. Connect the orange and gray wires from the DS51K1 to the turnout motor.
3. Connect the red and black wires from the DS51K1 to the track.
DS51K1 Address Programming
1. Turn off track power and temporarily connect the yellow programming wire from the DS51K1 to the same rail as the black wire.
2. Turn on track power.
3. Using your throttle, select the address you want to program into the DS51K1 and press either c (closed) or t (thrown) to operate the turnout and
program the address.
4. Disconnect the yellow programming wire from the track and fold it away so
that it can’t make contact with the track.

DS51K1 Operation Notes:
DS51K1 is designed to work with turnout machines with SINGLE bipolar coils ONLY. Use of this decoder with other types of turnout machines
will destroy the decoder and will not be covered under warranty.
Please see www.digitrax.com/prd_statdec_ds51k1.php the correct link is for a list of Kato turnouts that are compatible with DS51K1.

cheerz Garth

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