New to Z - forwards vs reverse performance?

Hi all,
Name's Ben, from Australia, had a thing for model trains since I was a kid... about 15 years ago (as a kid) I had a Bachmann N scale layout for a few years, more recently I have a pretty large LEGO RC trains collection. For years I've wanted to delve into the world of Z, and finally just this afternoon I received my first Z scale set - a Marklin 81560 starter set.

I've put together the little oval of track and everything is running OK, but I'm curious about the differences between forwards vs backwards performance and running in the loco properly for proper performance and a good long working life. At the moment the trains runs just OK forwards; takes almost 80% power (or 150 on the Marklin controller dial) to get underway, the front vibrates and shakes along and makes a fair bit of noise. Full power equals reasonable 'scale' speed... backing the power off to 125 results in on-off surging that eventually slows to motionless.

Run it backwards though... and everything is perfect. Pulls cleanly from as little as 50, much quieter right through to full speed which must be just off derailment speeds (looks very un-scale at full chop!). Will merrily crawl around backwards will little surging or modulation in speed.

This behaviour is the same regardless of whether or not the loco is pulling carriages (the starter set includes a coal tender, flat tray and container box) or solo, and in either orientation on the track.

It's been a long time, but I seem to remember my old N scale loco running better backwards too!

The instructions didn't mention anything about running in the motor, so I've been simply leaving it to run for 3-5 mins at a time, then varying the direction and speed. Forward motion has improved slightly but it is still nothing like reverse.

Any ideas? The track is clean (just out of box), not bolted down to a board yet, but our timber dinning table is clean and level. I just tried running the loco while holding it up on the track and interestingly it makes the same noises, so I'm thinking it might have something to do with the steam loco design, moving pistons, etc.?

Cheers, Ben.

Ben, unfortunately the quality of Marklin locomotives, especially at the lower price range, steadily declined in the past few years. The problem you're experiencing most likely caused by the excessive vertical play of the motor shaft. If you take the locomotive shell off, you can notice, as the locomotive changes direction the motor armature moves upward or downward, depending on the direction. This symptom causes higher friction on one direction, therefore different speed running forward or backward. The noise is caused by the brushes. because of the angle changes forced on them by the up and down positions of commutator. It's an easy fix with appropriate tools. More break in should help a little bit. Make sure, you frequently check the temperature of your locomotive, if it's too hot, it requires immediate attention.

Lajos:)

Thanks Lajos, that all makes sense. Shame that Marklin could consider it to be satisfactory given the price... I realise the small starter sets are 'cheap' as far as Z goes, but in the grand scheme of things it is still a lot of cash. The least you'd expect is it to go forwards properly!

Once I've run the train a bit more and I have suitably sized tools on hand I'll try taking the body off and sorting out the shaft play issue. What exactly needs to be done? Are there any instructions available online?

Cheers, Ben.

zthek wrote:

Make sure, you frequently check the temperature of your locomotive, if it's too hot, it requires immediate attention.

Lajos:)

Lajos, we talked about this the other night and the heating problem is what I suffer so my loco fleet needs some TLC.

Maybe when you are here in April? Or can you give a tutorial over the net?

I may as well dirty my hands instead of rely on your time and talents.....or is this above my IQ? Careful how you answer that.........
Loren

Hi Ben and welcome to the forum from another Aussie. Some good advice there. Unfortunately it seems to be a truism that some of the newer loks aren't as good as they should be, but then that seems to apply to more makers than Marklin. As a rule the M* diesel and electric mechanisms are better than the ones they put in their steam loks. If you want a really good and reliable mechanism go for the E44s/Br144s (8811 and 88111).

Well that's encouraging given I want to focus on German diesels and electrics. Unfortunately Marklin don't do small smarter sets with anything but steam locos these days, which is a shame/presumptuous/weird/annoying.

I bravely wielded a screwdriver to my loco earlier today to have a peek inside, and even managed to put it back together with it still working - bonus! I can clearly see the motor armature shaft jolting up when the loco is powered forwards - is this what you're talking about Lajos?

The famous auction site occasionally sees some lovely Swiss start sets with such locos. But yes, pity that the currently produced start sets do not cross more eras.

Actually I just managed earlier this morning to hunt down and purchase a new old stock 81862 set (30 year Miniclub freight set) for less than half the price I can get it locally, so that will cover me for some time now.

Can someone clarify something for me: do the locos come pre-lubricated? I've been speaking to the shop I bought my 81560 set from; he reckons they're ok to run in straight away. Is this the case? It's kinda hard to tell whether or not the axles and gears are lubed just by looking (they're certainly not dripping in oil, which is a good thing). After 20 mins of near constant use the loco was warm to touch, but not super hot.

Cheers, Ben.

headwerkn wrote:

Actually I just managed earlier this morning to hunt down and purchase a new old stock 81862 set (30 year Miniclub freight set) for less than half the price I can get it locally, so that will cover me for some time now.

Can someone clarify something for me: do the locos come pre-lubricated? I've been speaking to the shop I bought my 81560 set from; he reckons they're ok to run in straight away. Is this the case? It's kinda hard to tell whether or not the axles and gears are lubed just by looking (they're certainly not dripping in oil, which is a good thing). After 20 mins of near constant use the loco was warm to touch, but not super hot.

Cheers, Ben.

If it is new and has been sitting on the shelf all this time it may be inhabited by the solidfied lubricant ailment and may need cleaning and relubing before it will run. Go easy on start up and be sure it is moving okay at low power settings. If you get to full power and it is not moving shut the power off fast before the smoke rises from the motor. If you can get them to test run it before you take possession.

Cheerz Garth

Low speed is lousy forwards... won't go under 120 on the scale and near that it is surges. Reverse performance is perfect though... will creep at 20.

It was bought new and I know the place has had them in stock for nearly 2 years. No idea if they test run it before sending it through (the place where I've bought my other set did, as it is a 2002 model). I've got some proper model train lube now (Woodland Scenics Hob-E-Lube Ultra-lite oil - I assume you want a light viscosity oil for Z-scale) and am keen to lube it up before using it again, as it got quite hot being run in earlier today. The manual just provides some basic locations for oiling, nothing's mentioned about removing old oil, etc.? What's the preferred method for cleaning the parts before lubing? Would an ear-bud (Q-tip) and some metho or isopropyl alcohol (ie. tape head cleaner) be OK?

Don't worry about dried oil, or anything related to lubrication. Your locomotive was manufactured at least a decade after Marklin discovered the problem with their original oil. What Garth mentioned is true for the older generations of Marklin locomotives, stored for decades (mainly by collectors), without running them. Your locomotive got the necessary factory lubrication with a non-drying oil, it's still good. What your locomotive didn't receive is the necessary attention at assembly. I'm constantly helping Z-scalers with locomotive tune-ups, and I always do it for free. I know, your locomotive can be fixed in about 15 minutes, unfortunately to make it to my bench, it's a long journey. If you're OK to live about two weeks without your little locomotive, mail it to me. If so, send me an e-mail off forum, so you can have my new address.

Lajos

Update:

I bit the bullet, pulled the train apart, gave the moving parts a wipe with an alcohol-moistened earbud, then applied a tiny amount of oil to the gears, motor bearing and axle contact points with a toothpick.

After another 2 hours of running back and forth, forward motion seems to be improving. Whereas before the train would stall at 120 on the controller, I can now slow it down to about 65 without it pulsing or slowing to a stall. The amount of noise it produces has fallen appreciably too.

Running the loco for 10-15 mins then dropping the speed a notch, rinse and repeat, seems to be working at getting the slow speed control back. How long does it usually take to run in a loco?

Hi Lajos - thanks for that, will be in touch.

Personally I wouldn't be using a cotton bud - too much chance of leaving fibres behind in the mechanism.

Get yourself a can of CO2 spray cleaner (eg from Dick Smith), which is used for cleaning electronic apparatus and Hi Fi gear etc. It doesn't affect plastic and doesn't leave a residue, but you do need to let it dry before oiling. It's also highly flammable. That will take care of most problems. For stubborn gunk soak the mechanism in white spirits or lighter fluid for 30 minutes or more, then spray with the CO2 and then oil. For gunk that's really set hard you might want to consider an ultrasonic cleaner (I don't have one of those, yet).

Two other things to watch for:
(1) Make sure you put the loco trucks back the same way, otherwise it will run in reverse to the controller direction.
(2) Make sure that the wipers on the trucks aren't angled up more than about 15 degrees. If they're more than that they can force the end of the truck down a bit and that can cause derailments.

The 81862 is a nice set. The Br 151 has a 5-pole motor.

Thanks for the advice - I think I have a can of CO2 somewhere. I'd be a little worried about blowing something out of alignment though... they're pretty powerful. Anywhere you shouldn't be sticking the nozzle?

I hear what you're saying about the cotton buds... I actually bought a another pack with a firmer texture, and trim them down with scissors to get rid of the looser fibres. It was more just to dissolve any old oil before relubing - I'd hope nothing's that dirty so soon.

Yeah the 81862 was the set I originally wanted, as it is the only set, big or small, that Marklin's done with a non-steam freight train that you can still get hold of (there was a small Swiss electric starter set from nearly 10 years ago, I did see it once on eBay). Plus the big sets have a pretty good track layout for getting underway. Unfortunately the local price here in Australia is over AU$650, which was just to rich at the time, so I settled with the much cheaper 81560, just to get a start. A couple of days ago I found a place in the US selling their last set for a mere US$235 (about AU$270). Needless to say, that was too good a deal to ignore!

As far as I know there's nothing in a Marklin mechanism you shouldn't be pointing CO2 spray at. It is, after all, used for Hi Fi gear and similar. About the only bit that might get blown away is the light insert - all the rest seems to be firmly attached.

Well, I finally received my 81862 starter kit and - good news - its type 151 loco works fine. Richard from z-scale.net did test run it first for me, but still it's reassuring.

Hello Ben,

welcome to this bunch of crazy folks... from another crazy Z-head...

Your current layout pictures look just like my first layout pictures, just that the loco and cars were different (class120 and some freight cars...).

I have another question:

In your pictures I saw that you have both kind of transformers: the bigger grey/white one with the power cable connected directly to the transformer, and the smaller grey/white one which is divided in two parts: the control part with the dial and the wall socket power source. (I hope I'm not too far off with my English on this one... ). Is there a difference in the behavior of a loco using those two versions of a controller? For example is a loco running better with one of those controllers especially at slow speeds/lower voltage?

Hell Ben,

Let me offer my condolances for joining us Zed Heads. I just looked at your pictures also and love your wiring and taping the wires underneath the board, LOL.....
If you have any questions, there are certainly enough of us to answer your questions.
I also have Marklin items, mostly Swiss because that way I don't buy everything that is offered.

Until later,

Robert

Hi Ben,

All four of our locomotives have just returned from being upgraded to 5 pole motors by Lajos. We haven't run any of them yet because our track isn't quite ready. However, Lajos recommended we break them in by running them forward and backward for equal amounts of time over a span of hours. That way the brushes wear in evenly. We'll keep an eye out for any heat issues during and after the break in.

By the way, welcome to Zed